Finally, a reasonable and objective analysis of the state of baseball. Great job.

Hey New York Times, Boston Globe, LA Times, etc. !!

SIGN ENO SARRIS TO A DEAL!

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Except that the Marlins are already competitive with the NY Mets unless you’ve missed the last final series for ‘07 and ‘08 where Marlins beat the living crap out them in front of their own fans. It was a beautiful thing. Twice. And when was the last time the Mets won anything?

Obviously the author doesn’t understand that a paper profit is worthless, just go ask daddy how much of those paper profits he had in his 401K he has now. Go ask him, unless you’re afraid to see a grown man cry.

And if you knew anything about the Marlins you’d know it’s their lease that is sucking the team dry, that every year leaves them looking up to see bottom thanks to none other than John Henry who negotiated it and then lied his way from one end of South Florida to the other before he went north (sort of a reverse carpetbagger) and bought the Red Sox.  There’s a lot wrong with the Marlins but most of it is inherited. What I’m still laughing about the hardest though is that the answer is for the Fish to commit $50 million to Manny when no one else in baseball is willing, and then throw more money at some unneeded starting pitcher (because the kid couldn’t name three players on the Marlins roster). Just today the president of the Astros was bemoaning their inability to sell skyboxes this year to corporate season ticket holders, the Cubs are out of money, half of baseball has their fingers crossed about what this season looks like and boy wonder thinks the answer is for the Fish to spend like drunken sailors.

gee, no.

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I’m not saying that the Marlins need to spend like drunken sailors, nor am I saying that Manny is the answer for all of their questions. However, for a team that takes in more money than it spends on salary to beg poverty when it comes to buying more players to make their team better rings hollow to me. Are you arguing that there is no free agent that would make this team better?

When they take in more in revenue sharing then they spend on payroll, why do they need to cut costs so badly that they need to jettison Scott Olsen and Josh Willingham, both under control at reasonable pricing? Because of their lease? They can’t even spend money to put a decent team on the field in order to perhaps make the promise of a new stadium in the area more enticing for the fans?

No, I still believe that holding fans up for public financing, while reaping the rewards of revenue sharing without putting that money towards the on-field product - those are problems that loom just as large, if not larger than any overspending by the Yankees.

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Gee Manny was the answer earlier or is it your position they should go out and spend money to spend money? BTW, check with pops yet on the 401K? I’m still trying to figure out why we need a starting pitcher?

I understand you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about so let’s go through this, I’ll try to make it as simple as possible. First Josh Willingham has a chronically bad back, he refuses to have surgery and it has affected his playing time for three years. Last year he missed fifty games outright and it took and 30 for him to even get close to the player he was when healthy. Olsen has done a miraculous job of getting his personal problems in check but unfortunately his fastball isn’t anymore. He’ll make a good end of the rotation pitcher for Nats and I wish him the best but after he starts earning the many millions he’ll get in arbitration you’ll be wondering why the Nationals didn’t just pick up a fifth starter from free agency instead of being saddled with TWO arbitration players they don’t really need, that is unless you think the Nationals really need nine outfielders.

As for the Marlins stadium woes understand if you can that throughout professional sports no one disputes they have the worst lease in any game, one that not only robs them of skybox and club seat revenue but parking and concession revenue as well. Combine that with playing baseball during the rainy season in South Florida where the Dolphins-centric stadium personnel mock Marlins fans for sport, where the sight lines are so bad 80% of the seats down the lines face the outfield so unless you want to sit sideways for nine innings the only action you’ll see is a couple of teenagers making out up by the Jumbotron.

If that weren’t bad enough because they play in a 73,000 seat stadium there is absolutely no reason for anyone to buy advance seats because everyone knows they can always buy a ticket. So as I was saying, they are losing so much money just opening the gates that they have trouble covering their operational costs and field a professional baseball team that has, let me see, a World Series and four winning seasons since ownership took over in 2002 which is more than 60% of the rest of MLB can say, and that’s not even counting the WS.

Yes it would be nice if they didn’t have to use revenue sharing for things like operations or fielding very competitive minor league operations that turn out young major league talent by the bushel, but in order to survive this is how the Marlins have to roll.

As for your “public financing” belief system, let me explain this so even you’ll understand it. The entire deal with the city and county is a matter of public record and online so feel free to read to confirm what I’m saying. As for stadium financing there are no “public funds” being used to finance it, what’s being used, besides the Marlins almost $190 million investment plus rent plus upkeep for thirty years etc., is a bed tax tax collected from all you tourists who flock here each winter in hopes of getting lucky, Seven years ago the voters of Miami-Dade county approved the collection of this tax, THE SOLE USE these dollars can be used for is, yes you guessed it building sports facilities and convention-related development, that’s why it’s called the Professional Sports Franchise Facility Tax, not a penny of it by the way the good voters of Miami-Dade decided can be used to pave roads or build schools or build new housing for grandma. So if you’ve visited scenic and lovely Miami Beach or the environs and slept in a hotel, motel or flophouse, had breakfast, lunch or dinner, or done a number of other tourist related things chances are you are one of our benefactors. Thank you.

Hopefully this clears up everything and you’ll sleep better tonight. I know I will, having done my good deed for the day. And let’s be clear, if the Marlins had their druthers and even a couple of the revenue streams that every other team in any professional sport takes for granted I’m sure they’d be spending more on players than they do. I’m not taking the position what they are doing is okay (although more of baseball is wondering how they can be more like the Marlins), they just don’t have a choice. They aren’t cheap because they want to be, they are because it’s the only recourse they have. Meanwhile unlike a number of other teams who cry money problems the Marlins put a highly competitive team on the field most years and will again in 2009. Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore, Washington DC or Atlanta would kill for that. How many winning seasons have the Rays had, when was last time the Reds or Royals fans had anythng to cheer for?

Hope this helps.

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” understand you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about so “

He understands better than you do.  Of course, you understanding his point would require you to actually read and respond to what he was saying rather than rattle off a list of whiny complaints.

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Jim, it’s clear that you do not get the point of the post, although you’ve had it explained to you in detail.  It’s possible that you do not understand baseball, given your use of a two game sample size to judge competitiveness.  I’m certain that you’re entitled to your opinion.  You just don’t have to be such a dick about it.

Eno.  Never read you before, but much better commentary than you’d get from 98% of newspapers in the country.  Keep it up.

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Jay and Total, you must be very proud of your son. When he grows up maybe he’ll get a real job and move out of the basement. Does he wear those sunglasses to bed every night or is that some kind of trademark thing he thought up all by himself?

I really don’t need anything explained to me because the Marlins were and are competitive in the National League, a division they led for a good part of the season and without either Manny or another $25 million per spent. Really, take a few minutes and go week by week through 2008 and see how weeks the Fish were either in first or second place, and come back and try to explain why they aren’t competitive doing what they are doing.

As for those two wonderful finales against the Mutts, they were something special, especially the last one, watching all those losers walking out with their heads down while the victors celebrated on the field. Let’s face it, when it comes to losing no one is more expert than Mets fans, they’ve had so much experience.

What is missed is the Marlins don’t walk around and “beg poverty”, they just go about their business of building winning teams with what they have. Others say things like that. And this idea that the only expense major league teams have is ML payroll , well duh, I tried to explain that operationally they are at a deficit which is why you have the spending pattern that you do but I guess that went right over the whole family’s heads.

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Well said!

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It’s quite alright that Jimbo wants to walk around with Loria’s nutsack on his chin, but he needs to get his facts straight first.
1) Marlins games seat 37,000 not 73,000 - never noticed that in all those trips to the stadium Jimmy? The new stadium will have just about the same capacity, making it one of the smallest in the league.
2) The stadium will cost 515M with the Marlins fronting 155M (not 190M). And that bed tax will account for only 300M of the 347M that the county will owe. Add in Miami’s 13M and, oh yeah, 10M for demo of the Orange Bowl not in the estimate and, wait for it, another 100M for a parking garage that is also not in the original plan. Looks like the taxpayers will be putting up their own money to the tune of 170M. I checked with Eno’s dad and he agrees that the 401K won’t cover it.
3) Losing money - Everybody that has written anything about MLB team financials has called this claim BS. Yes they have a bad lease, but the bulk of MLB revenues come from local media and general ticket sales, both of which are controlled by the team.
4) Beating the Mets - is that really the gold standard for success? Gimme a break, bad process that results in a good outcome is nothing to crow about. The Marlins teams that won the WS were “high priced,” whatever that means. Did we all forget the fire sales after the victory parade?

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The Marlins are killing baseball? Year in and year out they raise baseball’s newest breed of All-Stars. They had a payroll of $20 Million and had a WINNING RECORD. That’s staggering. As a Marlins fan, I must say watching that team every year is extremely exciting. Getting to see a new batch of great players be raised from the ground up and continue to win together is very promising and fun to watch. And you obviously have no idea about the Marlins current leasing agreement at Dolphins stadium, that doesn’t allow them to generate half the revenue that all other major league teams have the opportunity of doing. The Yankees spend obscene amounts of money and get what… 5 more wins than the Marlins, who pay out less than some individual salaries in NY? Take a look around the league, see some of the players that the Marlins have been able to raise from the ground up. They are one of the most impressive franchises in all of sports. There’s a reason Larry Beinfest is considered one of, if not THE best GM in the game. There’s a reason Jim Flemming is considered one of, if not, THE best scouting director. There’s a reason that Marlins managers have won three of the last six Sporting News Manager of the Year awards. Get out of here with this.

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If you’re going to comment, you should always read more than just the headline…by the way, wasn’t it Marlins President David Sampson who scoffed at the Mariners signing Ichiro by saying “there’s no chance anyone is worth that.”?  Yea!  Now there’s a team I can get behind!

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Joe, you’re wrong on a lot of levels…

1 - Marlins game “sellouts” are 37,000. CAPACITY of a baseball game at Dolphins Stadium is around 65,000. Ever notice all the empty orange seats at a Marlins “sell out”?

2 - The tax money being used for the Marlins stadium is all tax that is designated for rebuilding the city, and ONLY developement. The stadium is just one of MANY things these Billions are being used for, and if you’ve ever been to little Havana, it’s neccessary.

3 - The Marlins were losing money between 2003-2005. Now that they don’t spend anything, they’re the most profitable team in the game (according to Forbes).

4 - The Marlins teams that won the 1997 and 2003 World Series titles were not “high priced”. They both had payrolls around $50-55 Million.

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The stadium holds theoretically almost 75,000 fans including boxes, etc., for a long while the Marlins had to open the entire stadium for every game but when that became cost prohibitive for the stadium’s owners, rent did not cover even their operational costs, the Marlins were able to downsize to 37,000 with the stipulation that should they need 37,001 they would have pay to open an entire section to accommodate that one seat. And pay to open the concession area for that section as well.

For the record, I’ve been a season ticketholder since 1993 so yeah I’ve seen plenty of empty seats. No question sometimes it’s heartbreaking but it’s an awful place to see a game with a family and since as I mentoned the Marlins are not allowed by the terms of their lease to sell packages to the biggest businesses in the area, they have to count on mom and pop and the kids. Over the years, the heat, sun and rain have taken their toll on a huge number of fans and who can blame them? That’s why the TV ratings are so high. The mistake most people make who think they’re experts on the Fish make when the say the team has no fans is they ignore (relative to market size) huge TV ratings—they’ve given up on the stadium not on the team Joe.

There was a question regarding how much the Marlins investment was, the difference being the construction overrun fund has to be funded before construction commences, hence the higher number. The Marlins are on the hook for 100% of any cost overruns. Small oversight on your part.  In the end it all goes towards the stadium. Same investment, different accounts. And as is typical of your kind Joe, when you speak in half truths, I guess because that’s only way you can make your argument. You forgot the $50 million already approved GO bond, you forgot the naming rights that’s already built into the funding as another source you didn’t mention. The have been collecting the PSFFT for over seven years Joe. It’s all there online.

The parking garage will be constructed by the City with the Marlins contractually obligated to rent (except for a small number of spaces for their business use) every space for every game for thirty years and the City winds up making a ton of money from those revenues plus an additional revenue stream should MLS or some other entertainment entity build on the remainder of the site.

And about firesales, the one in 1997 was not the current owner, it was Wayne Huizenga who still holds the lease that is at the core of the Marlins problems.  And was a black mark on of all South Florida sports. The second one was current ownership to be sure but it didn’t happen right after the last WS as you imply, in fact payroll went up in the two years after the WS, 2004 and 2005, it wasn’t until a stadium deal that was done and ready to be signed unraveled and with it an anticipated new revenue stream.

As for enjoying beating the crap out of the Mets and ruining their season, call me evil, yeah it’s a cherished annual event we all enjoy. I’m sure the good folks in Milwaukee and Philadelphia were happy about it too.

Where you get your information Joe I don’t know but it’s a lie to say the two Marlins teams that won in 1997 and 2003 were high-priced teams. They were if I remember 7th in 1997 and 24th or 25th in team payroll when they won in 2003. The facts Joe. Look it up. And both years we had 65,000+ in the stands for the World Series you can look that up too.

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I don’t think you can say that the stadium is not being built with public financing if it’s built with funds that come from a tax, no matter what the tax is called or whom it’s collected from. It’s a tax, and a whole bunch of people who care nothing about the Marlins are suddenly required to foot the bill for a stadium because of a whiny owner in charge of a team that is currently making money, but just not enough I guess. And that’s a fundamental flaw in your argument about the stadium money.

About the business viability of the Marlins, he bought the Marlins for $140 mill and now they are worth $245, how is he pleading poverty? Why does Miami-Dade have to put so much money in? Yes, I understand about 401Ks and paper value, but so do the people making the valuations. The Marlins are worth a lot more than when Loria bought them, and no matter what the final numbers read like, Loria will make a hefty profit when he sells the Marlins, that’s for sure. But for some reason he’s hemorrhaging money now, forgive me for not crying a tear for Loria.

San Francisco built their stadium privately, it can be done. It’s better for everyone when the team does it themselves. I don’t consider the description you put together as a description of a privately financed stadium.

And my point about the Marlins and money is this, really: It’s better for baseball if the Marlins spend more on their major league payroll. And the Marlins would be better if they bought a veteran for the bully and the outfield or that third base sinkhole they’ve been trying to fill for years. You can call it spending money to spend money, but they have holes on that team and spending money could help the team get better. By not spending money, they are hurting their own team and baseball.

I don’t really understand why my father (a subcontractor with no 401k) had to become a part of this discussion, so I’d appreciate leaving him out of it from here on out.

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Josh, the day-to-day operation people, the baseball people on the Marlins, they know what they are doing. I say in my article that what they are doing works for them. They obviously know how to scout better than almost anyone in the game, and they teach the kids well while they are coming up in the organization, it seems. They ‘pump and dump’ like the Oakland A’s and that has proven success in the league. But even the Oakland A’s buy veterans to plug holes on the team.

By taking in more in revenue-sharing than they put out in payroll, they are making a mockery of the revenue-sharing system. Even spending money on the level of the Oakland A’s, in order to perhaps avoid having a sub like Wes Helms starting at third, that would be better for the league overall.

What I mean by better for the league overall is that spending more money on payroll will help assure that the best players are always playing, and not just the cheapest players.

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Great article!  It’s good to see some people understand that one solution (revenue sharing) creates another problem (not spending revenue sharing dollars). 

I guess you just have to ask yourself the purpose of revenue sharing.  Is it for the owners to use as they see fit or should it be spent on player acquisition/retention.  As a fan, I vote for the latter.

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Eno stop masturbating

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